We discussed the genre of Naturalism a bit at the beginning of class. Naturalism is similar to Romanticism except that a person’s fate is ultimately unavoidable (the stories tend to have sad endings). It is a pessimistic (or realistic?) philosophy of life. One common variation of this philosophy is the belief that “if God truly is all powerful then everything that happens must be the will of God, even evil, suffering and tragedy.” Does Dimmesdale’s speech at the end of chapter 23 support this theory of naturalism—that everything that happens to us is God’s will and that although we may not understand why things happen the way they do we should trust in God that everything is according to his plan? Or is Hawthorne challenging that concept through his critique of the Scarlet Letter as an unjust punishment, and his depiction of Chillingworth as evil?
I feel as though Hawthorne wants us to think that the story is bound by fate, but at the same time he wants to suggest that there is a chance that free will can be utilized.
ReplyDeleteI think that this whole story makes not only a mockery of religion in general, but also of the idea that there is truth to "fate". He tries to make the point that society is stupid, and they further it through the use of a "higher power" and "fate". Much along the same lines as the thoughts of Hobbes.
ReplyDeleteWell as a devout christian man, protestant to be specific and puritan to be really specific, he believes in predestination. What will happen in ones life has already been decided by god. However, Dimmesdale does have a sense of free will about his character while still under a thinking of predestination. He chooses to have sex with Hester(technically a sin) but then spends the next 7 years repenting and tormenting himself.
ReplyDeleteMystic Princess 231
Dimmesdale is trusting that God planned the whole ordeal to teach the world a lesson so that Hawthorne would later write the moralistic theme into his book. On the other hand, Hawthorne doesn't really seem to be extremely religious or adherent to the Christian dogma that is the core of Puritan law and value. I think Hawthorne and Dimmesdale would disagree, even though Hawthorne created the minister.
ReplyDeleteI think that Dimmesdale is trying to make himself feel better about his sin. Hester no longer feels guilty because she believes that she has suffered long enough but Dimmesdale only said the truth at the very end. His speech does support the theory of naturalism since he refers to Chillingworth as a blessing from God.
ReplyDeleteArthur Dimmesdale believes that everything was planned by God and he says so right before he dies. “He hath proved his mercy, most of all, in my afflictions.” (267) He is saying that God sent him all these horrible things to make him repent and to keep him in such agony that he would be forced to admit to his crime. However, I think that Hawthorn is trying to challenge this concept because he continually describes Chillingworth (supposedly sent by God) as being associated with the devil and as evil. He also seems to be saying most of the book that Hester’s punishment was over what it should have been, both she and the priest suffered more then they deserved. He is showing how most of the situations they came to, good or bad where caused by their own choices. Dimmesdale and Hester chose to get together and have Pearl and suffered the punishment but while they thought they were deserved, Hawthorn wrote that he thought they were over the top. Of course the positive consequence was that they got this delightful child in Pearl. Even all that happens to them later is a result of their choices; Hester not telling Dimmesdale about Chillingworth, Hester staying in the village, Hester and Dimmesdale deciding to go.
ReplyDeleteI disagree with the sentiment that everything is destiny set out for people or that it is all being controlled by someone. This is a depressing outlook (out necessarily realistic). It is great to feel like I have some control over my life and that the decisions I make do make a difference. I believe that my future does depend on what I do because that is what I see working.
@ 1093spaghetti
ReplyDeleteDimmesdale, since he was a minister, seemed like the kind of person that *would* think that the whole thing happened to prove a lesson, but doesn't free will still play into that? He still has a choice to follow along with that idea, or simply ignore it and save himself years of self-inflicted torment.
I liked "Keller's" interpretation, Hawthorne likes to focus on the internal discipline of the individual, whereas the rest of the Puritan society favors to sin but it is fine because they go to church
ReplyDeleteWouldn't that make fate a convenient excuse to sin? "Oh I shot him, but it is my fate, and I cant do anything about it because it isn't God's will."
ReplyDeleteThere is no doubt that Chillingworth is the symbol of evil, but is he the only symbol of evil. Maybe Hawthorne intended to have the whole village symbolize the evil and Hester and Dimmesdale were the symbol of good triumphing over evil. Just a thought.
ReplyDelete@hello people: you forgot an apostrophe in can't.
ReplyDeleteAnd there is a lot of sin within Puritan society, it's just a matter of whether or not you get caught, like Hester was.
Dimmesdale's speech reinforces the Puritan belief in the will of God, but Hawthorne is challenging that by showing how much pain Dimmesdale went through.
ReplyDeleteHester believes she has repaid her debt to God for sinning but Dimmesdale, having never confessed until the end, feels that his fate is to not be with Hester in the afterlife. But Hester feels that it was their choices that led them here and that they have both suffered enough for sinning and that they will get to see each other again. Dimmesdale faced years of internal torment for not confessing while Hester felt she had completed her punishment for God and after a certain point the A stops meaning the implied Adulterous.
ReplyDeleteBy believing in fate, the Puritans could get away with alot of things. Person A could be executed because it was their fate and they are a sinner incapable of change. The Scarlet letter clearly shows how a "sinner" is capable of change. We are just left to wonder, was it her fate that brought this change, or the actions of the community?
ReplyDeleteFate is unavoidable and one's free will plays into one's fate. In other words, since Dimmesdale chose to sin, his tormentation from guilt is his fate. Fate and free will are inseprable and indistinguishable.
ReplyDelete@ Dr4g0n514y3r_0.123792^8_slayer_commander
ReplyDeleteThe Puritan society was moer than a set of rules. They were a way of life for these people. I don't think they would try to get away with whatever they could when they were alone.
Again with the Hobbes point, think about how the author is poking fun, and how messed up everyone that lives there is. DO YOU REALLY THINK ANYONE OF THEM HAS ANY REMOTE CHANCE AT MAKING IT ANYWHERE NEAR HEAVEN?
ReplyDeleteYou are really dumb. For Real...
ReplyDeleteDimmesdale was hitting the nail on the head, on a roll, but then he was up a creek without a paddle. Dimmesdale strikes Truth into the people of providence, but once talking to Hester, goes back to his usual self-deprecating penitent self. Hawethorne and Dimmesdale both support that God's will is always active even in the bad, but Dimmesdale forgets that "God has plans to prosper" us, and not forsake us. Dimmesdale still dies in fear that he will not see Hester again, as if his sins weren't forgiven by Christ's sacrifice. Chillingworth and The Scarlet Letter are simply examples of the steel gold being constantly heated and refined by the blacksmith until they are pure. Dimmesdale is lucky to be pure, caused by evil as a catalyst for that purification, before he died.
I think Hawthorne certainly reflects how fate can shape a persons actions especially when they themselves feel they have a fate set out for them. The Puritans believed that the all powerful God would dictate all of their doings in life yet. Hester represents how by ones own will one can escape this fate. Aristotle once said that "Happiness depends upon ourselves." Hester clearly exemplifies the notion behind this quote in that despite her punishment she learns to find joy and not only sorrow in life. Dimmesdale in the end however feels that he has had a fate bound before him and does not try to exercise free will he views Chillingworth and in a larger sense all that has happened to him as God's will and something he couldn't change. He worries that God will not forgive them as Hester believes but hopes for the best yet feels he has no control over what happens to him.
ReplyDelete@ Helen Keller, that's that point. The ending of the story is left so broad so that we dont know if Dimmesdale makes it to "heaven" there isnt suposed to be an answer. Only God knows
ReplyDeleteMrs. Meier....
ReplyDeleteYou're saying that dimmesdale had the potential to be "good", but because he lacked confession god couldnt purify him. But Hester becomes good because of the Scarlett Letter's purifying process from god?
Because the belief in God plays such a significant role in the book, naturalism can most definitely be seen in Dimmesdale's speech. He tells Hester that he is glad that God gave him enough time to confess his sin, that he hopes that that God will let them be together in the afterlife, and that Chillingsworth is a blessing.
ReplyDeleteThat goes back to the God thing though. Is there true fate or is it all just a hoax to try to get you to do "good" in your life?
ReplyDeleteHawthorne is indeed challenging the Puritan belief of fate, seeing as "fate" drove Hester to commit an act considered horrible by her peers.
ReplyDeleteI think that Dimmesdale is saying that despite our best efforts, everything is ultimately out of our control. He is saying that he is unsure if he will be saved but knows that God is in control of it. Through this, I think Hawthorne is challenging this idea overall, even though his character seems to be reinforcing it. I think his own beliefs are shown in Hester and how she sinned but was forgiven and is now sure that she will be saved.
ReplyDeleteHawthorne is challenging the idea of Naturalism, the contrast between Hester's life and Dimmesdale's is evidence of this. He argues that had Dimmesdale admitted his sin he would have been just as free and sure as Hester. But because he waits until his death to admit his sin he feels that God had sent Chillingsworth to get him to confess. Why didn't Hester need this catalyst?
ReplyDeleteDoes potential to do good or evil have to match up with fate though? Dimmesdale had the opportunity for years to confess but he didn't. That doesn't mean that he didn't have the potential to do good and confess, and consequently save Hester from years of torment.
ReplyDeleteI think Hawthorne believes in the naturalist philosophy that everyone is bound by fate because of how Dimmesdale's death is a such a climax of the book. When Dimmesdale describes Chillingworth as a blessing sent from God, it makes it sound like Hawthorne wants his audience to believe what Dimmesdale says on his deathbed. When Dimmesdale said "He hath proved his mercy, most of all, in my afflictions...By sending yonder dark and terrible man" he is stating Chillingworth as a man of god, who helped him to finally confess his sin.
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